032 - Unprofessional on Purpose with Thomas Lahnthaler

This week's professional risk - inspired by Thomas Lahnthaler

Letting a room see you're human at the exact moment the role expects you to hold it together.

Description

Most of us carry a private rulebook to work: be on time, stay composed, sit properly, keep the personal out of it. Nobody handed us this rulebook, and nobody quite agrees on what's in it — yet we only discover its contents the moment someone tells us we've broken a rule. And that label, arriving uninvited, does something to us. Suddenly we're managing the fear of doing it wrong rather than doing the work.

Thomas Landthaler has been on the receiving end of that label since his very first job interview, where a panel told him to get comfortable and then critiqued the way he sat. Since then, he has led teams in crisis zones where his idea of good leadership counted as unprofessional, sworn at workshop groups, asked 150 keynote guests to give up their seats — and once logged on to teach 300 people on the day of his mother's funeral, having decided to push through as the professional. What he said in that first minute is where this conversation begins. This is an episode about the professional risk of choosing to break the rules before the rules break you.

This episode invites you to reflect on:

• Which of your ideas about "professional behaviour" are universal — and which you simply learned somewhere along the way.
• What the worry about doing something "wrong" does to your intuition and your ability to connect.
• The difference between breaking a rule on purpose and being caught breaking one you never knew existed.

Over to you!

Which professional rule do you follow mainly because it keeps your own nerves quiet?

About the guest

Thomas Lahnthaler is the author of “Facilitating Reflections” and “Navigating Beyond Crisis”. He is a facilitator, consultant and educator whose work has taken him across very different professional and cultural contexts, including international development and crisis environments. Those experiences have repeatedly challenged his own assumptions about what professionalism is supposed to look like. Today, he brings that curiosity into his work with groups, deliberately experimenting with expectations, roles and conventions to create the moment he describes as people finally being able to “lower their shoulders” and connect as humans.

Links to learn more about Thomas Lahnthaler:

Website

LinkedIn

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:16

What happens if we dare to tear off the mask of professionalism and actually risk showing up for real? I'm your host, Miriam Happy, and this is unprofessionalism.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

I talked to my colleagues, like, you know, could you please help me carry down the desk? They just ignored me. I wasn't I didn't exist. And I got really annoyed. I was air for them. And they pretty much emptied that whole room. And I was standing there not understanding what's happening, holding on to my side of the table, until there was only that table left. And I'm like, what's happening? And then my deputy is coming up to me, and African colleagues is like, well, it's not really considered professional that the head of the office works. That's not your task. Your task is not to help out here. Your task is to be the boss.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Thomas, welcome back.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Thank you very much. This is exciting.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Tell me one of those moments when you've been unprofessional.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

I wonder if it would be easier to find a moment where it wasn't, where it was professional. Um I think I'm I'm professional unprofessional all the time. Uh I swear. I come late, I forget names, I eat in meetings, um, I do all the things that probably others consider unprofessional. But but what was interesting thinking about this topic was going back to the first time when I was confronted by it that I clearly had done something unprofessional which I didn't consider at all. And that was at the beginning of my career. I didn't even have a job at the time. It was my my first job interview. And looking back, it was very interesting because I I was already getting a bit desperate of getting a job because I had like had several months without anything, like lots of part-time jobs and nothing serious. And then I was invited finally for my first conversation, first real job interview. And I even bought what I considered professional clothes, even though I didn't think about it that time. I even wore a jacket, which is a rare sight, but those people who know me, they know that. And then I come in and there were like three ladies sitting, and I was like, and the first thing they said to me, like, well, get comfortable. It's very important for us that you're comfortable. So, you know, we want you to sit down and get comfortable. I I got comfortable and I sat down. Yeah, I always sit. Interview went well. And at the end of the interview, they were like, Yeah, we just want to give you feedback. Uh, because um the interview was was really good, but um, you have to work on the way you're sitting. And I'm like, what do you mean by the way the way I'm sitting? Well, you're slouching, and this is, you know, you you come across as really like very unprofessional. And I was like really, I was really hurt by that statement in a way, because it's also looking back, it is very paradoxical, because on the one hand, I was given the information that I should get as comfortable as possible, which I took for granted that that was really what they wanted me to be, and then I couldn't sit as I wanted to sit because that was in their world not professional enough. I did get the job in the end, so it didn't affect that, but it was still something that has that sat with me for a long time because it's it's that frame of like what's what's actually professional and what's not professional that I have encountered many, many times over the years, uh in in different settings, different contexts, and which always seems to be challenging, and hence you have your your podcast around it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Yeah. And yeah, the the unwritten rules that they expect you to know, but nobody tells you. And even the opposite in your story, they give you the hint as if it was okay, and then in the end it's not.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

For me, it was just difficult back then because I I had no reference point, right? Of course, I learned from my parents, you know, you gotta be in time and you don't talk back to authority, and like those those certain rules that that of course uh looking back, they they tried to give me a frame for professionalism. But but I had never thought that something like city was even in in in the game or in the topic of that. And of course, there's there's way more to that than just sitting, uh, which I've learned later over the years, but but um the unwritten rules as you call them is that's exactly the the challenging part very often that they're unwritten and unknown.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

And there are a few things that cross my mind. One is would you have been so convincing in your speech if you said in a different way and maybe not as comfortable?

SPEAKER_01 4:38

It's a good question, because with the sitting, of course, I've became very aware of that later on, right? And and and I always like I I I get kind of what they were trying to say, but I I struggled with the framing that it was unprofessional because i I always struggle a bit that with that label anyway, because does it make me less of a professional just because I sit a certain way or dress a certain way, and and I think with the dressing for me that that that's become a huge personal topic over the years, uh, because I feel that's also why I said before, you hardly see me in dress jackets or like in in in basically in soup jackets or anything, because I I feel I become somebody else. Uh so for me, for me, it is very important that I feel comfortable in this situation, and and I have related that a lot to to the clothing over the years, and and that was of course also my mental moment, right? This was my my assumption that I'm not myself if I wear different clothes. And that the moment I start thinking about that, I'm I'm not doing my best because I'm distracted. Uh and the same was with the sitting over the years. So I do think that had they pointed this out during the conversation, I'm not sure I would have gotten the job in the end because I would have been very self-aware. And and we all know that self-awareness in a situation when when you when something's pointed out to you is not necessarily a positive thing. Can be, but it's not necessarily the case because you think you're doing something wrong. And that's a bit the tricky thing, especially when we talk about professionalism versus unprofessionalism. Like it's it's always the connotation, like you do something wrong if you're unprofessional, which is all at the end of the day, just a matter of perspective.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Yeah. And speaking of the matter of perspective, you've worked in so many different roles and areas. So you did work in development aid on the ground in crisis situations, and you've been a consultant and a facilitator. And I'm sure that there are other roles that Oh, you were a t university teacher? I assume that the way you said in a crisis situation in Sudan, nobody would have ever pointed that out as unprofessional. So, how has your notion of professionalism changed over the different worlds?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

You made me think I actually never thought of it. Somebody had pointed that out, but it might have not been that somebody pointed it out, but it might have had an effect uh in a certain situation, even if I was in, let's say, South Sudan in a crisis situation, because I would have met different people in different contexts, right? So if I met, for example, a governor, I couldn't have slouched the way that I slouched there because that would have been disrespectful in many ways, right? And whether it's unprofessional or not, that that's something else. But but it's um it wouldn't have created a relationship. And and and I think in in all those roles, something that that I related a lot or that I relate strongly to professionalism and unprofessionalism is that it's for me, it's almost like a frame that allows us to connect. It's something that it's it's the frame that okay, how how can I relate to you? How can I can connect to you? What are the unwritten rules here that help us communicate? Because I when I looked, when I was in preparation for this conversation, I reflected a lot on experiences that I've had in the past. And and a lot of it was related to culture. And and what they have in common is that they they should facilitate a interaction, a connection somehow that that I can show up as myself, but the other person also. And that's very often the tricky thing because we have these rules that are not the same. And I have learned that the rules that I come with, that I maybe had as mental models were professional, in many other places are not not professional. Not the same. They're even not considered professional. Uh that's so basically the tables have turned. And and that's when when when I was really challenged in terms of how to handle that and how to to interact and how to not lose the connection, it was so important in those situations.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Can you give an example?

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Afghanistan, which was the first job that was actually the job that I got after that slouching interview. I was having several roles there, and I'd already been there for for a year, and I got a new position, and that was a leadership position. Uh, my first leadership role in general, but it was also a in addition, a I led a team of mainly Afghan colleagues, some internationals, but mainly Afghan colleagues. Our first task was to move offices. So we had basically a house where we had our offices and we had to move into another house. And and and I got into what was at that time the or for my predecessor's office, and I got to the desk and I I talked to my colleagues, like, you know, could could you please help me carry down the desk? They just ignored me. I wasn't I wasn't I I didn't exist. And I got really annoyed. So I talked to, you know, I tried to speak to them and they just looked away. It was that I was air for them. And they pretty much emptied that whole room, and I was standing there like not understanding what's happening, holding on to my side of the table, until there was only that table left. And then an Afghan colleague without looking at me came very carefully pushing me away from that table and and like trying to take over. And I'm like, what's happening? And then my my uh my deputy is coming up to me, an Afghan colleague, he's like, Well, it's not it's not really considered professional, but the head of the office works. That's not your task. The task is not to help out here, the task is to be the boss, and the hierarchy is a different one. So I was so he he didn't say as much as I was unprofessional, but it was considered not to do my role and my task, and and it undermined because I I was supposed to be the boss, and the boss doesn't help in those situations there. And for me that was very difficult because I I mean my is my my philosophy is we all help uh and we all work together, right? And and that was for the first time when I was really like, okay, so this is this is really challenging, because it also led me inevitably to the question like which professionalism or which view is is worth more, right? So who has to in a way give in and who has to not give in, and and where how can we meet in the middle somewhere? Because that's that's what I can consider often challenging, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Who's the one that makes a step away from interesting because very often when we decide to be unprofessional in a situation, we we're giving up some sort or we are giving up something. And in this case, it would be status, right? So you're putting yourself down in terms of status and hierarchy by being unprofessional and helping out. And what I hear now, what I find interesting, is in a Western context that's very often considered admirable. Oh wow, the boss is helping us, right? So we are on I level. And in the situation that you described, like you cannot do that.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

No.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

And then I wonder sorry, just one because you said that professionalism for you is a way to connect. And I wonder whether it's really about the connection or whether it's more about aligning expectations.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

I think I think for me they these two things are connected, right? Because ultimately, what expectations are we aligning? It's it's a way of interacting with each other that is regulated, right? It's a way of behavior that that leads to ultimately like I don't know, being respected or being looked upon as an equal or having a seat in the room, and what that leads to is then having a place to be able to interact and communicate and be well, reach your goals, but whatever at the end of it is. But but for me, it often very much boils down to wanting to be connected. And now back to that example, you said it beautifully, is like my intention was to be part of that team, right? I just have taken over the team and I wanted to be part of the team, so I wanted to also show that I I carry my share. They wanted me to fulfill my role to be able to be part of the team. But that was unspoken, right? So I didn't I didn't understand that that was considered unacceptable. It's just not and and nobody dared to tell me that either because of the because of the hierarchy, because of the authority, you you don't speak that or you don't criticize someone who's in a person of authority, right? So I couldn't I couldn't learn either other than really step into that, let's call it trapped for the sake of the argument, to do that until there was nothing left that could could have been changed, and then I got carefully pointed to not that you made a mistake, but but it was more like that's why they do this. Because they cannot tell you and they don't want you to help, because for them it's also they want to they want to show you what they can do. So they want to show so it was a lot of like these subtle dynamics, and and I think I think these things over the years they taught me so much also in the in the facilitation work, right? Because often it's that's where a lot of people come together, and you have to kind of not forget that most of them have maybe different ideas of what's professional and what's not professional, right? And as facilitators, we we we netigate and then we come up with our own assumption into this. So so that's that's what what taught me a lot, that okay, it's it's a lot about perspectives, it's a lot about trying to find that territory where both can move without losing themselves really. And this is uh delicate task.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Yeah, and since you mentioned the facilitation, where a lot of things that would be considered unprofessional in the let's say consulting world, and I would be curious about your perspective, is very professional and expected in a facilitation world. So to create a little bit of warmth, to share your own vulnerability. All these things are expected from a facilitator. And still, from what I understand, you also broke some norms about professionalism, even in that context.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Yeah, yes, absolutely. Uh, and and in a way, I mean, you know me very well, and some listeners might have come across me before. So I I've also made that a little bit my my personal uh ambition, not to kind of because very often it's it's it's mistaken why you do this because you want to provoke people or you want to challenge people. It's like yes, but not not without intent. And intent is is just simply that there's not there's not one truth, it's just you know, it's about expanding your own realities and getting additional perspectives by just opening up and not get stuck in in your own confinement that we often make for ourselves. Um yes, I have, but I have also learned from them. And I think in our last conversation I shared when I was when I was swearing at uh at a group because I got angry and I took something personal, and that was for me a lesson, and and wasn't necessarily really facilitating my connection with the group, but it facilitated their connection with each other. And that's also what I've what I've learned that sometimes, for example, I took the role that I saw that they struggled to come together, so they need almost like a common enemy, adversary, whatever. So I took that role, right, through provocation, through things that that that they might not like, because it brings them together. The intention was there also to to say, okay, we have more in common than than we don't. It becomes tricky when it's topics that that personally, of course, affect me. When I struggle to kind of see the bigger picture or see the dynamics, and when I'm too much involved, um we have all had that situation. But but it's funny that you mentioned uh consulting. What I have also done is I've tried to transfer a lot of the facilitation work into consulting. And I it was interesting. I got different reactions because people expected, of course, certain things from consultants that they that they would never think facilitators would do and the other way around. I've had generally positive experiences, but I've hit some walls because people were like, uh, this doesn't work for us at all. Uh it's this is not your role, and what are you doing? That's not what we pay you. And that was that was interesting too.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

How did you react to that? Do you surrender, push back, understand, maybe see their point?

SPEAKER_01 16:57

I acknowledged, of course. Uh it's it's I acknowledged. I laid often what I what I usually try to avoid is I put my intentions out. Uh like this, these were my thoughts behind this. Um that's that's why I did this, which I felt in this particular case created some understanding, but it didn't create acceptance, what I did. And the the the important thing in this situation, and and very often also, and you know that very well with the work that you have done, is also to not take ownership or for struggles that are not mine. My my struggle in this case was that I could not communicate well enough, or didn't I didn't what what I had foreseen could work with that particular group didn't work. That was that was my struggle. But I knew what their struggle was, and they projected a lot of their internal struggle or their resistance or fear or insecurity when it comes to changes that they would have to make, decisions that they would have to take, onto me. And that boundary, and that boundary I I I could clearly set. And I said, yes, I understand that what you you know okay, you don't like to draw in a workshop. Fine. You know, nobody expects a consultant to come in like, well, we draw now. Okay, fine. I I get that. The thing is, what did we do? So I tried to kind of take them away from the method into the topic and and say, like, this is what my intention behind it was, and and and clearly it didn't work, and I accept that. Doesn't change the fact that this decision needs to be made. So I I I didn't let them off the hook completely because we are professionals. We also we have intentions why we do certain things and why we hope what we hope to achieve and what we also see from the outside, whether this is a consultant or facilitator or coach or anybody else. And the methods are just different, and they considered them professional, and I'm like, that that's fine, I take that on me. It doesn't change the fact that Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

I find this fascinating because it it has never happened to me that uh a group would say we don't do that because I never came into a space with a labor consultant. I always came as facilitator. And how suddenly the resistance increases because they project a very specific role of professionalism, you do and you don't do, you can use certain methods or not, you can push us out of our comfort zone. As a consultant, apparently you cannot push a group outs of their comfort zone, at least on this level, maybe intellectually.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

In in this particular case, their expectation was that that I tell them what to fix and how to fix it.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

The role of the consultant.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

And and I'm like, there's no point in me telling you how to fix it because you won't fix it. Uh and so I switched, and yeah, I switched heads, but I was also very transparent about it, but that didn't reach them. And they didn't reach them because of the inner resistance, the dynamics. They didn't they didn't dare to go where it hurts yet. And what we did, and I I was in the lead of this, of course, did not facilitate that. And I saw that already when we were together, but it wasn't taken as so the offers to kind of open up and and and go a bit into this weren't taken, they were only taken for space. And what I found sad with that conversation afterwards was that some of them, for some of them, this worked very well. For others who were the dominant part afterwards didn't work at all. So those even those people who said like this is an opportunity for us and we know which way to go, they were taken back into the, you know, we feel comfortable with this discomfort that we have rather than trying something new. And that was fine. Again, it's not my responsibility. I I said I take all the responsibility for the process work, for the intentions that didn't didn't work out, but I can't take the ownership of the problems that you have to solve. And that also would include I cannot tell you how to fix it, because only you can fix it. And that's also why I didn't continue to work with that group. We we changed internally, it's somebody else took over.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Thank you for sharing that. I think it's very inspiring to hear the nuances and how to play. Yeah, with the again, with the unwritten rules and assumptions related to role. Something that came to my mind with the story you shared earlier. Um, when you got triggered by a group and acted emotionally, which could be considered in even in the facilitation world, unprofessional. You shall not get triggered, right? We have to be composed, we have to have our shit together, work on our inner things, blah blah. And still we are human. And I can see how the professional armor of playing a role, not showing any emotions, not even going there, not even touching areas where this could happen can protect you. But then again, at the cost of losing the connection, maybe to the group.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Actually, not really, it was a mix, it wasn't facilitation as such, but uh but I have uh led online an online course right after my mother died. It was basically a a uh a long, long class. Uh and and one of the workshops was I think on the day of the funeral. And it was, I think it was just it was either the night before or it was after the funeral, don't remember exactly. And I was in no place to do that. But I also knew that this was a uh a global class and they had a very tight schedule, and um and there were like 300 people tuning in, and I'm like, okay, I kinda have to push through this, right? And this this was an interesting because it was first of all an internal battle. An internal battle of I wouldn't necessarily put it in the category of professional and not professional, but somehow it probably was. Uh it's like, am I gonna be the professional who just sticks this out this one and a half hours, or am I not? And I had actually decided, yeah, I'm gonna do that. I was in and wasn't not really in a mental state, obviously, but I have decided to do it and I had everything clear, and then I locked on, and the first thing I said, like, I'm really sorry. We will do this session today, and I really wanted to be here for you, but I also want to share what and then I share basically what happened and how I am. And I know that there were without a doubt, because this was a global audience, and without a doubt, there were people there who considered this not profession. They should stay out of that sphere. But the overwhelming majority actually did, and I saw that from from responses. And whether they and I don't think they put it in category professional or unprofessional, but they could put it in category human, which again makes us more relatable. And for me that what that made that a lot easier actually to do those one and a half hours afterwards. And and so I'm a huge fan. And I I and this doesn't mean unconditional transparency, that's often something that I I noticed people use interchangeably, but I'm a huge fan of not pushing emotions aside because they're on our own compasses and how we show them is a different story, but but at least acknowledging them, learning how to what what they want to tell us, because they also tell us in situations uh where we want to go and what we need. And sometimes it's it's a good way to make it's good to make it transparent, not necessarily how I did with that one group that I swore at and stuff, but that emotion was still there. And and I think the that's more transparency topic than it is actually a should we have the armor or not. I think you can also acknowledge your emotions without having to necessarily show them to the outside, but work with them on the inside, that's at least would work to me.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

This is indeed um a good nuance. And what comes to my mind is the question of the intent behind the sharing. So whom are you serving by sharing your internal state? Is it to create transparency so that they understand what's going on? Is it for leading by example so that they can also share freely? Or is it almost a manipulative act to get the group into an emotional state of where you basically force them into a drama triangle by playing the victim, potentially?

SPEAKER_01 25:17

I I think it can be all of that, and probably even more if we start to explore. Um and and this is where the intent comes in, right? I mean, both of us, and I know many listeners are are intent-based people, so I think it's really like what what's the intention? And if I go back to that example, I think that was an optimism. I just needed to say that. I didn't even have an intention. I was just like, I'm I'm not feeling it, and I this needs to get off my chest because I'm I I I was arguably was more talking to myself than to anybody else. Because sometimes when we say things out loud, right, they do something with us. What is very interesting is really when when when of course you can play with the emotions, right? You can you can use them, as you said, like you know, creating an artificial trauma triangle, but you can also what what I have to learn from my own reflections, and you know that I do that a lot, did over the past years also when it comes to my professional world, is for me it's more most important to actually show that I'm also human before I show anything else. For me, one of the key moments in in in the work that I have, whether this is a meeting or a facilitation or coaching, is the lower your shoulder model. This is like this is it's a visible moment. And when I invite people to pay attention to that, it's either there or it's not there. But it's even when you make a speech, and I would be curious if you ever maybe experienced that when you were at the Ko-On where you had that your email presentation. It's the moment when people relax and settle into that chair. Because in the beginning, everybody's we underestimate that it's not only us who are nervous, but it's also the audience or the people that we're working with or meeting that have a bit of tension. And that lower-the-shoulder moment is the connection moment. It's like, okay, there's that's actually there's a person there too, even though that person has a role. And for me, that's a key moment. And I work in everything I do, I work very hard to achieve that because that's when I can settle. As long as I don't have that, I don't feel I have the connection, and neither do I feel they have the connection to me. And that's where why I also I like to show there's more to me than facilitate a consultant, whatever whatever role I have at that particular point, but there's also person.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Hmm. So the the moment where there's this the dropping the shoulder, I can feel this collective sigh, this oh, we can be ourselves, or we don't have to to play a role, we don't have to keep it up. And then what I hear in that is that their reaction, because it's basically shows that we don't have to be on guard, we trust. It's it's a kind of it's a release of the nervous system of okay, we can trust, and then they will also listen more. If we trust more, then we free up so much energy. And my assumption is that it gives you then the the sign that you won't be judged.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

So if you And and even even if I might be judged, right? But in this case it it it matters less to me because I feel that they're present, they're not they're not already judging me before something has happened, but they're in the process, and then they're like, okay, but we're also here and I'm here. Because I've had that too, and I'm like, I I don't land. I've had facilitations or meet or meeting even with with uh a training with um uh a friend of mine and we both were working and and he started the training. And after and we both had roles, but after an hour and a half, the first break, it was like I'm not I'm not here. I I'm like I I don't know what to do. I'm like, I feel like I'm completely misplaced. And he's like, okay, so why why didn't why don't we do that? You do something. And then I went in and I didn't made a I think I made even a joke about it. And that little, even it wasn't a big laugh, but that little, you know, a few people laughed, and I was like, okay, finally, I felt I felt something, and I could settle in. And linking it back a bit to the professional unprofessionalism, I think the moment we we consider something unprofessional or we are labeled unprofessional, like I was in my first story, my nervous system is up again. Right? My alert system is there again because I've I have done something wrong. That's that's basically the message I get.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

So I have to be careful not to do more wrong, or I have to be careful to do things right. So immediately we fall into those two categories that I anyway generally struggle with, but it puts me on alert and it puts me on on uh I'm not sure if I'm doing this right now or not. Or blunderstanding.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Over overthinking, not connected to your intuition, you're out of the flow, you yeah, you're only focusing on the alert signals of the risks, but not on the more emotional side of the human connection, maybe. Um I I think it's interesting this moment of stepping into a space and basically creating this moment of connection by showing your human side. I wonder whether there is also a risk, whether the risk is real or the risk is only perceived. That an audience could also think, oh, but we hired you as a professional consultant, a facilitator, a speaker. I'm not interested in how you are doing. You're here to teach us something. Where do you think and I don't believe that it's one audience who is this way or the other way. Where's the nuance?

SPEAKER_01 30:28

The nuance for me, and and it sounds probably this sounds for many people professional, but I the nuance for me is how I settle in. I cannot be I can I cannot even do what I'm asked to do if I have not landed. So for me, a lot of the stuff that we do, and I believe that whether this is regardless of the role, a consultant or facilitator or even a teacher, if we're not settling in, we cannot do what we do. So a lot of the stuff that we actually do in those roles also serves us. Whether we know about it or we don't know about it. And my aim is always to know about it, right? So how does it serve me? So why do I do something like I do do? Going back to that example before, which which didn't go so well as a consultant. I know that I did those things because I felt I'm convinced they're good, but I also felt more comfortable doing that than doing the other consultancy stuff, which I could do, right? But this was my own only only belief, my personal belief, which overtook there, and I felt like I want to give them something different. They didn't ask for something different. I wanted to give them something different, right? And but I felt more comfortable in that than in the other role. And that's that's that's the honest truth. And that's also why I let or why my tendency was more to do that stuff that I've been more comfortable with than what they probably asked for. And I think it's it's the same when we come to audiences. Yes, it's never the same. I think this is very crucial what you what you said before. It's it's not just one audience, we're all individuals there, but but you can create dynamics by showing up a certain way that will then serve different people. And again, it's also about the information, right? How an audience or how audience members, I shall say, react is information for you. Because you might have half on your side and half not. So you might also know that I have to be careful not to be seen as part of a half, right? I have to do something to kind of overcome uh the distance that I still feel here. I also don't have to make it all about me. I just show up as one audience member here as well, because I'm also observing them, and this is how they react to me, right? So I I get in get something in return, and I think it's everything we do in in different situations, it's all it's all uh giving us information whether it's about professionalism or not, whether it's about connection, whether it's about landing acceptance, um, so all topics in there.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah, do we create the moment where the audience trusts us as an expert and as a human being at the same time? And I um it's funny that you mentioned the that we all do it in a way to create this moment of safety for us. And all my facilitation, I always started with the turn to your neighbor moment in all my online facilitation. And it was years into that that I realized that I'm mainly doing it for myself. So sending the participants away for three minutes to speak to one one another because it helped me. I I first see the group, then I get an idea of how many they are, how they look, what the vibe is. I send them away for three minutes so that I can settle. And then they come back, and then I I'm totally relaxed. And it took me a while to do it.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

And I think we all have that. We all have that. Uh and and the way we start, the way the the the the the tools, the things we resort to, uh the way we approach meetings, the way this is beautiful link back to the whole topic of professionalism, because I think our own ideas of professionalisms are just that, are basically things that make us safe. And we say, like, this is these are these are the rules I can abide by, and unwritten, unspoken, and ultimately it's that's what meet makes me feel safe in the context. Because when is it really topic? It's really topic when it's challenged. Because nobody ever talks about professionalism when it's not challenged, right? We can we can look back and say, oh, that person behaved very professional, but when you then ask, what do you mean by that? Then that's when they come out, right? Oh, that person came on time, they didn't interrupt, ask questions, or for consultants gave advice, right? Gave us perspectives and tools. And at the same time, it also c it's it's more likely to come up when it's unprofessional. They came late, they interrupted all the time, and they didn't get, you know, we had to draw while all we wanted to do is uh how something know some how we can solve a problem because it makes them also think I'm not a professional because I didn't give them what I what they wanted. So we're immediate in the judgment, right? But when we get what we what we want, we feel safe when somebody comes and reaches out the hand, or when somebody, you know, the the whole topic online. I mean, I think the pandemic changed a lot about the whole professionalism and professionalism. The whole debate that we've had for years, like, is it okay to have cameras on or cameras off? I think there's still no answer to that. But some would consider it highly unprofessional if the camera is off, and others would say, like, oh, it's very unprofessional if it's on and you have a background like I have. So again, this is a beautiful illustration for that. It's mainly maybe mental models that help us or that we've learned whatever they come from, or they have different origins, but that help us, or this is how I have to behave.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

It's a guidance almost for ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Yeah. And what I liked in what you just said, or at least what I heard, is the notion of how does it make us feel to behave professionally or unprofessionally. So we feel safe, accepted. Yeah, safe and accepted when we behave according to the rules professionally, because we are not making mistakes, we won't be judged, and nobody can blame us if the outcome are not as expected. Whereas when we behave unprofessionally, we have this little we might feel excited because it is a courage, it's leaving the conventional, it's bending some rules, there might be some complaints, and if it fails, we will be judged.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

And I think there the ownership is a double. That is very important. Because if I if I intentionally are unprofessional, I own it. So I kind of prepared myself or okay, I could be judged, or but but I kind of I have more control over the the direction this goes. If somebody else tells me you're unprofessional, I'm arrested. And it it it is a very different trigger for me than if I if I say like okay, I do something now that I always unprofessional, or that might be considered unprofessional, because I'm prepared for whatever impact that could have. I'm like, I I have to brace myself that something's gonna happen. And I did a keynote once where I said like that I show you know the easiest way with about 150 people. I they've all settled in and they had their coffees and they had their notebooks out and whatnot. And it was on disruption, and said, like, I show you know the easiest way to make yourself uncopy in 10 seconds. And I said, like, please, please grab your things, get up, and find a new seat. And like I saw some people like, what the hell is he doing? Like, I mean, this is you know, and some people even said they just and and I knew I might have lost them already before I even started that email. Um, because they said, like, I'm not gonna do this. This is, you know, it's just you could see that they they struggled with that. And and I know that they considered me unprofessional just doing that. And later on I had actually I think I had um teddy bears and stuff on the stage. So I I I really I like I played completely on that on that topic, and I knew that they were very difficult to get into the boat, but I also knew that that I took that risk because I was convinced that the majority would would be able to relate whatever I did to the topic itself once I once I started talking. And had this been the other way, had somebody in the audience, I had just you know, no intention, somebody in the audience had said, like, well, but this is very unprofessional, or like, do you really think that's professional? Whether you can arrest people in many ways, I would have felt completely self-aware and insecure, like we said initially in the conversation, right? I would be like, Oh, I did something wrong here. But when I deliberately do something wrong, I'm like, okay, there might be might be reactions. I'm more ready for that in some way.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

What was the intention behind asking them to change seats?

SPEAKER_01 38:43

To to to illustrate for them that we have three different ways, or there's three layers to disruption. One is the origin, one is basically the mental assessment, and one is basically how we react to it. And and and and that helped me to to lay that out very quickly. It's like, well, I'm the origin, right? I asked you to do it. And then you can mentally assess whether this is good or a bad thing, or you know, I'm or don't care at all, it's just what it is, and then you can react upon it. You stay sitting, you grab your things, you help somebody else, you have lots of ways. And and it was basically to point out that we put often we put most attention to what we do what we've least influenced over when that's the origin. So people when they get angry with me, that's fine, but they can't change that I've said that. But they can change how they assess the situation and what they do about it. And this is a bit this this was basically an illustration of that disruption is very simply created.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

That sounds pretty much like a Thomas Lanthader event.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

It was a it was a was a fun thing.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

I can uh I hear your signature, yes. What is something unprofessional you would still advise other people to do?

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Um I just love swearing. I know not everybody does it, but I I think it's just a uh relieving aspect. It shouldn't be like with anger, but it you know, sneak in or whether that. Um it's not everybody's thing, but yeah. Uh I I think it's just generally do something you've never done before and see how it makes you feel. Because it's not even about the reaction, it's about how you react to it. Um and start next time a meeting differently and and maybe in an unprofessional way, right? What you consider unprofessional and see how it makes you feel. And uh that's that's something that I would encourage, which doesn't cost much.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Thank you, Thomas.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Thank you, Miriam, for having me. Pleasure is always always a delight.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

This was a conversation without the script. Now it's your turn. I'm Miriam Hapmas, and this has been unprofessionalism.