028 - The Costume That Got Me Promoted with Moh Guissé

This week's professional risk - inspired by Moh Guisse

Abandoning the persona that got you promoted.

Description

For years, Moh believed he was doing exactly what a successful professional should do.

After his manager suggested that the way he dressed affected how seriously colleagues took him, he didn’t just swap oversized hoodies for penny loafers. Slowly, almost without noticing, he changed the way he spoke, the way he led and even the way he related to other people. The clothes became an armour. The armour became a personality. And the personality eventually followed him home.

The strange part? It worked.

He was promoted. His career progressed. From the outside, every signal told him to keep going. Until one day his own team joked that mentioning his name was enough to make other departments back down. Instead of feeling proud, he realised he’d become someone he didn’t want to be.

Our conversation explores what happens when fitting in turns into becoming someone else. We talk about code-switching, authenticity, identity and why wearing a professional mask doesn’t just change how others see us, but also how we see them. Moh describes the moment he stopped leading through authority and started leading through trust, why that transformed his relationships at work, and how reclaiming something as simple as the clothes he wore became part of reclaiming himself.

This episode invites you to reflect on:

• Which parts of your personality have changed because you believed they weren’t professional enough.
• Whether the version of yourself that helped you succeed is still the version you want to become.

Over to you

Where in your work are you still performing a version of yourself that no longer feels true, and what would be the smallest step towards letting that mask slip?

About the guest

Moh Guissé is the founder of The Team Wizard, where he helps organisations build stronger collaboration, trust and leadership. After nearly twenty years in the fashion industry, he left corporate life to create a business where he no longer had to code-switch or hide behind the image of what a professional should look like. Today, he works with teams exactly as he is, believing that trust begins the moment people stop performing and start meeting each other as humans.

Every team is stuck in its own way. Ten questions to map how yours is. Three minutes, it's all it takes: https://ttw-diagnostic.netlify.app/

Links to learn more about Moh Guissé:

Website

LinkedIn

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:16

What happens if we dare to tear off the mask of professionalism? And actually with showing up for real. I'm your host. And this is unprofessionalism.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

My team say that whenever they will feel that there is a resistance to one of the requests from the other teams, they would bring up my name and would say, Oh, we are going to talk about that with Mo. And all of a sudden, that will remove any obstacle that they have. Because they say people are actually afraid of you. And I think that was the point where I realized that I was becoming or I was perceived as a person that I didn't want to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Mo, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

I'm delighted to have you here and to have you share all the stories that I already know with the audience and hopefully more stories. And I like to jump right in and invite you to share a story when you did something unprofessional.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

Yes. So the first thing that came to my mind is dressing like I am. What does it mean to dress as who you are? Yes. I did all my career for nearly 20 years in the fashion industry. All my corporate career was in the fashion industry. And that's an industry where people tend to be very conscious of how they look like, how they dress, how they come across in that style and so on. Especially when you work with a product as I did. People tend to be then biased on how they perceive you as a professional. So in the last company I worked with, when I started, I really came up with I was in my early 30s. So I came up really much like, you know, like I would dress normally for people who know me, wearing, you know, wide legs, trousers, oversized hoodies, and so on. Uh you know, sneakers, limited edition sneakers, these kind of things. And um at the very beginning, I remember a conversation that I had with my manager that was I was a year into the company, and that was my annual review. And he told me, you know, Mo, you are doing a great job. It's it's it's it's really good how you know how you pick up your work, etc. And as the conversation goes, I feel that it is a little bit um uncomfortable, and it tells me now, I think one of the things that you can improve is uh how you dress because of how people perceive you within the company. Um so so now at the time the brand the brand image is is is very preppy, you know. That's you know, you have the jeans, your polo shirt, your your your your or your blue. If I I remember management, that was often blue jeans, white shirt, and uh blue jacket, you know, navy, navy jacket. That was like you know, penny loafers, penny loafers, or sometimes, you know, when they were going crazy, white Stansmith, Adidas Stansmith, and uh and that's it. You know, that was the uniform of the sea level. So I was very different than that. So he told me, you know, you have to to perceive. And what happened in the years that followed uh is that I took that advice and and I started then dressing up more accordingly to what I perceived was a brand image, was what was expected from me. Did you buy these penny loafers? I some point I wore penny loafers, believe it or not, suede uh penny loafers, brown penny loafer loafers that would combine with uh uh a white jean trousers and a chambre shirt and this, like you know, uh uh blazer and so on, you know, like this pink blazer with the pocket square, you know, and all of these things. So very what I perceived as being very preppy. I I didn't feel very comfortable about that, and and what is interesting is that as I was transforming in my way of dressing, as well, I was making adjustments in the way I was communicating, the way I was being. So the way I like trying to actually code switching in in dressing came as well with code switching into pretty much every other aspect of who I was and how I was coming across to people.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Can you give an example of this different behavior?

SPEAKER_03 5:43

Yeah, so uh a different behavior was that I would take myself, I would go to a meeting, for example, uh a sales meeting, where we would have like the representative of different countries and we would be presenting the collection. And the way I was dressed, I would as well be very serious in the way I speak. I would be very serious, very posed, and and and and that was for example, that was an example. Or sometimes as well, I would tend to be a leader quite directive as well. Like, you know, this kind of like how you would imagine these old school leaders, like executive, like saying my way or the highway. That's as well as I sometimes I would behave. So so not only how I communicate, but as well how I would behave, I would become much more to a certain extent, I would say aggressive, but not aggressive in the sense of like being um not violent communication and this kind of thing, not that, but yeah, being very assertive and being very um uh almost authoritative or authoritarian or authoritative, you know. Uh that would be basically how I would come across.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Wow. And it's very interesting. And I'm wondering whether it's an impact of you feeling uncomfortable or whether it's the impact of the harness. So you're wearing an armor and then it kind of toughens you up, yeah. Or is it you feel so uncomfortable that you're not the smooth, open-hearted, relaxed mo that I know?

SPEAKER_03 7:32

Yeah. I I think both. I think both. Uh and and the question is mostly like the question of a chicken and the egg, which one was feeding the other. But I think both. It's literally that that blazer that I was wearing was pulling me down. The weight of it was pulling me down, if I may, you know, as an image. So carrying that was making me was tiring me. Uh figuratively. I felt that it I was playing, I was playing a role.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:14

You know, and I'm not an actor, so you're not paying to be one. So so that was exactly. So that was my that was draining my energy.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah. But it's they're not left for doing the real job. Exactly. And one thing that you said, so your back then manager, only in the company, comes to you. And he said that the way you are perceived or could be perceived in the company.

unknown 8:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

And I find this very strong because for me it makes all the alarm bells ring like, have people talked about it? Are people looking?

SPEAKER_03 8:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

What is happening behind my back or what I'm not seeing?

SPEAKER_03 8:58

Exactly. Exactly. So, so sort of when you hear something like that, it's different than a feedback where they might say, okay, you know, well, I saw you in that meeting, and you come across maybe as this and this and this, maybe in your communication with your colleagues, there is this things that you could adjust, you know, because I've seen you doing this and this and this. You know, but all in a sudden, as you say, it's like it opened like a whole Pandora box, or you know, or can of worms where you you I started, you know, doubting myself. I'm like, what are people saying behind my back, you know? And and why don't they why do they speak up? What do they speak about with my manager? And is that the only thing that they say? But why didn't they come to me directly and tell me that? And and you know, you have like all these things. I have I had all these things that started like going into my head, and I was like, ah, I I don't know. It it's it's really made me feel uncomfortable. Yeah, it's it's really made me feel uncomfortable, and I doubted myself quite a lot at that period of time.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

It harms your psychological safety, basically. And the curiosity that comes up is you mentioned that you then code switched to started dressing accordingly.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

But it impacted your behavior and that you noticed also that you became more assertive. Was this something that was ever then mentioned as feedback? No, that was not. That was not. And isn't it ironic? The behavior that from how you describe it sounds like, oh, this could actually be something where constructive feedback might be appropriate.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

Yes, I I think I think or maybe they were happy that I was more assertive. Could be as well. Uh I remember once uh my team, because in the meantime, then I, you know, I I it worked because I my career, you know, progressed, etc. And I came to the point when I was managing a small team. And uh I remember my team members coming to me and saying, We were having, I think we were having a team offsite, you know, where we're talking about our strategy and so on. And and we were in a kind of like casual environment. And you were wearing a hoodie. No, no, no. I was still, I was still, yeah, I was still, you know, I was, you know, I was uh I didn't break the role, I didn't break out of my role, you know. Okay so my team told me that actually because we were in the off open space with all the other teams that were related to that business unit that we were part of. So we were the sales team, we were a merchandising team, and and then we had all the other support functions, etc. And my team say that whenever they will feel that there is a resistance to one of the requests from the other teams, they would bring up my name and say, Oh, we are going to talk about that with Mo. And all in a sudden, that will remove any obstacle that they have. Because they say people are actually afraid of you. Oh, how did he say and and I think that that was the the the point where I realized that I was becoming or I was perceived as a person that I didn't want to be. That that was not the person that I that I wanted to do to be. So they say that like in the tone of joking, and I laugh about it, but inside me that something something clicked, and I realized, oh, that's not the person that I want to be. And what was interesting is that at the same time I had an opportunity to move out of this position and or even this function completely and move into a project uh uh role. And I think I decided at that point, I decided intentionally to to change the way I was, and it started first by changing how I came across and how I was speaking with people, and um as well, what was important was that yeah, to start being more myself, and the thing is that at that time I was already probably about like five years doing this, five to six years, and it was difficult because all of a sudden this person this persona at work had become my default mode. So it actually took me to do a work on myself to rediscover who I was.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Wow, and I have two curiosities coming up. One is it sounds as if it has also affected your private life, so that you had taken on this persona and that it also came into your private life, so that you changed not only how you communicated there, but also around. Um and whether it did. So there's a question. And then I would be curious how did you make the change? Because so many of us dream of changing. Yeah, it's difficult.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

Yeah. So on the first point, you are absolutely right. It bled into my private life with my friends, with my family, all around, I tended to be more of that person who is very, you know, authoritative and you know, directive, and say, okay, it's that has to be like this and this and this and this and this. So that was the first part. And then the second to your second, does it answer your first question? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Did they notice?

SPEAKER_03 15:27

Yes. I think at that time a lot of uh I I had some some some some friction with some of my friends. Uh, some of them stopped being my friends. And in general, but I I mean it it did impact the quality of the relationship that I had with my friends, with my family, and with people in general, in my private life. So that was definitely something that was good for me to realize that, and something that I didn't mention as well, is that at the same time, and that's probably related as well to the second part of your question, is that how was it, how did I do that change? It was really the urge that came to change it, you know. It's it's like I really felt that it was a need for me. And and that even for my work, it had become counterproductive.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

How did you work?

SPEAKER_03 16:28

I remember that at that time I entered a uh a senior leadership program. I entered a senior leadership program and there was a 360 survey. And something that shocked me was in terms of I think I don't recall if it was integrity or authenticity, but I think it was something around that. Like, how do you perceive Mo has you know in integrity and authenticity? And I scored very pretty low on that, lower than average. And I was like, but no, how is it possible if there is one thing, one value that I really that is at the center of of my life is really around integrity, authenticity, honesty. So how come that is that this uh disconnect between what people, you know, uh how people perceive me and how I see myself going through life? And that's why I realized, yeah, it's because I'm not showing. So I stole talk about that with my coach of the time, and she said and in the end, uh she made me realize that I I'm not coming to the office as I am, I'm I'm carrying so many, I'm wearing so many layers that people actually feel it. So yeah, people felt that I was not authentic, people felt I was not I was not honest. And if even if for me the in my intention was good, I was just trying to fit in, so to speak, you know, but the result was counterproductive. So realizing that, realizing the fact that it was a pack impacting my personal uh you know relations made me want to to made me realize okay, I need I need to to break free of this. And because of that opportunity as well, where I was starting a new role, then I decided, okay, how is it that I can leave that behind me and start from scratch? And how is it that I want to be, you know, in that new role? And uh yeah, I just want to be myself.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

What was the first step? What was the first thing you changed?

SPEAKER_03 19:00

The first thing that I changed was I I I went backward where I changed basically how I come across. What I mean by that, not only how I come across, let me put it that way, I changed how I interacted with people. So all of a sudden, I started listening more to people. I started being more open toward people, and I started definitely being much less of a authoritarian than uh uh uh you know toward toward people. So I I I first started with that, like basically going back to my personality, you know, stop playing that that roles, you know, stop putting the volume up on everything, you know, and just be like, just be me.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Just want to honor that. Yeah it requires a lot of self-awareness.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

You think so?

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Yeah, to realize, because what I what I hear is basically it's a defense mechanism somehow. Um the desire to prove or the act of or to cover up this insecurity, uncertainty, desire to fit in.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

And then to realize that there is something that you can change.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Basically to let down that guard.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

How did people react? What was the impact of that?

SPEAKER_03 20:32

So in that first, so this was the first phase. Already in that phase, I felt people, the behavior of people toward me changing. I had a new team as well at the time because then I because I started in this new position, I had as well the I was lucky to create my team as well, to hire people to create that team. And from the get-go, so basically I was uh interacting with my team where people I didn't have any history with, or it didn't, they were completely new to the company as well. So that was great because they they could meet me for the first time. Yeah, they meet this new or slash original version of me. So that was definitely helping.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

I want to point out something else that I find remarkable. That apparently you were successful with the old you. Yeah. Because from what I hear, it was a promotion that you got, and not oh, your behavior wasn't good, so we give you a different team. No, yes, you got a promotion. Yeah. So from the outside, the signal was yes, you're doing well. Continue. And despite that outside signal, you realize that you wanted to change something.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

And do something inherently different.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

Exactly. Exactly. I think I think because for me, look, and this is probably true in most of the corporate. Environment. Your ability to progress in your career is not linked directly to the value that you offer to the organization in which you are. It often, unfortunately, it does not even have to do with how you interact with your peers or with your team, but often how you manage up. So as long as the decision makers, the people who make the decision along on your career advancement are happy with you, the rest matters very little. So as soon as you understand what it is that they expect from you, and you are able to play that game, you are able to advance in your career. And I would say not only in corporate, but probably in most organizations with human beings, I'm not criticizing it, it's just a rule of the game that you have to know. Now you can decide to play by that rule, or you can decide to break that rule. So for many years, I played by that rule and it helped me. Then and my career basically, I was able to progress in my career recording. So deciding to break the rule was, as you said, other risk. However, for me, continuing to live the life, you know, in that to keep wearing that mask, continuing to be perceived by my peers or my direct reports, my colleagues as being inauthentic represented a greater risk, as well as the impact that it had in my personal life. So I said, you know what? I'm going to change and we'll see what is going to happen. And then so that's what I did. I became more of myself, and that helped me. That helped me with the people. On a sudden, I started having this one more meaningful relationship with my colleagues, with my team, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_03 24:28

Is that being able to see the people as let me put it that way, one of the costs that came, you know, with me wearing a mask was that I was dissociating, I almost had like a dissociative personality, or at least I thought, that there is the professional more, and then there is the more outside of work. So because people were meeting a role that I was playing, I was assuming as well that I was meeting a role that they were playing. So basically, in my head, that was role interacting with role.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

And then there's no space for any personal conversation. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

Exactly. We are professional and and we are professional and we talk about business and we pursue business, and that's it.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Huh.

SPEAKER_03 25:24

Now and it's not, I think it's not even something that I would say was coming from the company, the culture in the company. That's very much something that I had created in my head, you know. Uh and I say to so once I became a person, then I started meeting people and not any more roles and job descriptions and you know, but actually interacting with human beings.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

What was the impact on the business?

SPEAKER_03 25:57

So so for me, at that point in my career, without even me knowing it, uh, I was relying a lot on the trust that people would have to be able to do a good job. When when you lead projects, you know, uh, you don't most of the people who have an impact on your success, on the success of the project, are people who don't have a reporting line to you. So it's important that they trust you because you cannot enforce anything.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

It's the influence without authority that's so many look for and seek and never find, and then get frustrated.

SPEAKER_03 26:45

Yes, it's collaboration, you know, and that collaboration requires trust. And you can for me, I learned that if people were able to see me and I was able to see them, that created trust.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Yeah, and the biggest obstacle to trust is a lack of authenticity. Yes. Believing that you're playing a role or hiding something or being too too much of an authority. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:18

Yeah. Yeah. So so that's definitely that helped me. And then, of course, let's not underestimate the fact that you know, if you put so much energy playing a role, that's energy that you are not putting in your work, or it's super exhausting. So the fact of uh being able to be myself as well made me more effective of what I was doing. You know, better, it made me better at what I was doing.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Redistributing the energy. Yeah. And I can also see the I'm projecting. So what comes up for me is um when I don't feel as I can be myself and I'm putting on this role. I end up resenting the people around me for doing this to me.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

Yeah, how so?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Because it takes, and that's what I think what I meant before, it takes the self-awareness and the waking up to see, oh no, this is coming from me. I'm putting on the role, and that's why they're reacting to me. Yeah, responding to me instead of being the mean people. Yes, yes. And this waking up, I don't take for granted.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Right? It takes something to make that shift and to realize, oh, it's not them. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

Or maybe it's them as well, but because you are triggering something in them that make them react that way. Yeah, let me put it that way. If you are walking, you know, you are walking down the street and you see someone coming, you know, fully dressed in an armor, you are not going to hurt that to hurt that person. If you or someone coming with the shield up, you are going to raise a shield because you don't know what that person wants from you. Yeah. You you can you inter something inside you interpreted it as being a menace, a threat. So maybe they do the same.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

And was this transformation or this different management approach? Yeah. Um, something that you addressed explicitly then with your team, or was it something that happened under the radar by you modeling it, that it created a different team culture?

SPEAKER_03 29:42

So, as I was saying, I think at that time there was a transition when I transitioned from one team to another, from one role to another. And um I asked my team to be uh to hold me accountable as well for that, for something. So I didn't tell them, okay, this is how I used to be, but I told them, okay, this is how I want to be, you know, as a manager to you. And um, and please, if you see that I'm not, you know, I'm not living up to that, I would be very grateful if you could, you know, point it to me. So that way I can, I can, you know, I can be aware of that and you know, and and and reaffirm my commitment to change, to be, you know, to live that. So that was with my direct report. And I think as well, I remember one of the first team meetings that we had, we we were a very small team at the very beginning. We we had this team strategy meeting, probably about like three months after the team was created. And and one of the exercises that I had done in my leadership uh uh journey was to do a lifeline. That's a very interesting exercise, very scary as well. So basically, what you do is that you go through your life and you put the high and the lows of your life up until the moment that you are speaking to them, you know. So you put the the the the the the high and the lows. Like a graph, yeah, like a graph. So this is my life. Okay, I was when I was in high school, when I was in I remember the first time I ate ice cream, I was super happy. Then I had a very bad grade, and I was super, you know, and and so on. You go for your life like that. So so it's very much look like an ECG, you know, when you look at that. And um, now that exercise, you can be as vulnerable as you can, or as uh close as you can, because technically, you know, I could say, oh yeah, um when I graduated college, I was very happy. Then I get my first job, I was very happy, and uh then I got married and I was very happy. I had my first child, I was very happy, and uh, this is my life, you know, or you can really go into you know the the the places where you know that are difficult. So bear in mind, these are people that I knew only for three months. And my coach said, Oh, you can do that with your team. I was like, hell no. That was my first reaction. I was like, hell no, I'm not going to do that with my team, you know. And she said, Yeah, but that that would be very interesting for you to do precisely because you feel so uncomfortable about that. Now, you know a little bit of my background in martial art and the fact that sometimes when I felt uncomfortable doing something that's precisely what attracted me to that aspect of my practice. So I said, okay, let's apply that to leadership. So so we had this exercise, this meeting the first time, this offside team building event, and I decided to do that. So I really went to some of the details, some of the darkest time of my life. And what resulted out of that is that, and I went the first one. And I went the first, and I say, okay, this is the exercise, and this is my life. And interestingly enough, they did the same.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

And all of a sudden, we were only, we knew each other only for three months, but then we became so much closer as a team, you know, and that maybe that's something as well that could be perceived as being unprofessional, you know, doing such an exercise, you know, with your team, and people putting it, you know, putting the life out there could be seen as in many environments as being unprofessional. But what result in terms of trust, in terms of cohesion in the team is so strong, you know, that I think it's worth it.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Wow. And I for me that's the definition of vulnerability, right? Being scared and doing it anyway. Yeah. Because it involves this risk. What if they didn't follow? What if they then speak about their promotion, the kids?

SPEAKER_03 34:22

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So or what if they think, you know, even worse, what if they think that, oh, this manager is really weird.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Yeah. Or incompetent. Oh, you're too, you're too weak, you cannot exactly, or unprofessional, you know. Yeah, yeah. You know, uh, can we trust him in the decisions?

SPEAKER_03 34:45

Yeah. So, and ever since every time that I have I had a new team member, we would do that exercise again. The all all of the team. We would do that exercise again.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

And were you still wearing your penny loafers?

SPEAKER_03 35:02

No, at that time I had so I would that's a very good question. At that time along the way, I got rid of the penilofers. So I think that's something that came probably as the last thing or one of the last ones was that oh, I'm done with that. And uh then I I went back to my oversized trousers and and and sneakers and over and oversized sweaters and caps, you know, uh wearing those. And uh yeah, all of a sudden it's it's interesting because even in my body I felt more free, you know, in my movement, in uh I was more relaxed. I was so much more relaxed, and uh, and that that it did make it make a difference. And and I had the style of my own, yeah, and it was okay. And my manager at the time was you know very supportive. She she she was like, Oh yeah, you dress as you want, and and it's okay, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

And now I wonder how much of it was the status. So you climbed the ladder. Yeah. So was it that you reached a point where you earned it to have your own style?

SPEAKER_03 36:17

That's a very good question. And I think there are two, there are a couple of elements to that. I think the first element was the cultural aspect of it. For me, that was important as well. As I became older, my values, my identity became clearer, and my relationship to those became stronger. So, what I mean by that is that I became more uncompromising, you know, in relation to my values and to my identity. So I'm not someone who is preppy, I'm not someone who is coming from a preppy social background at all. As you know, I went to a university where there was a lot of people who are very preppy. And at that time, I was wearing my baggy cargo pants, my military boots and my sweaters. I was just going through that, you know, and I was very unapologetical about that. Yeah, and as we have talked, along the side in my corporate career, it moved, but it changed. But what is interesting is I realized that the way I dress is as well a part of my identity. It's a part of a culture that I'm that I belong to. And what is very interesting as well is that when I was dressing like that, the message that I was receiving, or the message I the way I felt was that people were perceiving me as being too ghetto. And there's you're a black man. Exactly. Yes. For the people who are listening in the I'm not a black man, I'm biracial. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

You're men of color.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

Sorry. Exactly. No, I'm biracial. I don't uh I don't identify myself to being black because my father was black, my mother was white. And this classification of black and white, of black especially, is something that goes back all the way to laws that were written by you know uh racist old men in the 17th century. So that's the reason why I identify myself as being biracial.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

So, but yeah, I'm someone of African descent. So I would be perceived as being too ghetto, but when uh a couple of years later, while I was, you know, I was dressed with preppy, etc., then you would have some white designers dressing exact same way as I would dress before, and all of a sudden that would be cool. So at some point, I would I I was like, how come? You know, that at some some point this appropriation of you know an identity, a way of looking, etc. That were created by people who look like me. You know, for me it's perceived as being is it's perceived as being uh a ghetto, not fitting in, and for them it's perceived as being cool. So I was like, no. And and and so therefore, for me as well, that was a kind of reappropriation. So not only it was for me to to really be who I was, to become who I am and to dress as I am, but as well to reappropriate that and say, no, give me the thing back, yeah, you know. So so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

Yeah, thank you also for correcting me. I think it's very it's very important.

SPEAKER_03 40:09

That that's I don't know if it's a correction. That's my you know, these topics are always very personal. That's the first thing. So I'm not saying that I I hold other people who look like me may have a different opinion, and it is okay because in the end it's a personal journey. And and because that's the journey of how we see ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Thank you. What I find what I struggle with is that it almost sounds as if there need to be a sort of permission by the cool white dudes that you can wear your inherent clothes and your inherent style again.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

At least that's how it felt to me to a certain point. And that's how maybe it may have felt for a lot of people in my situation. It's that because you are constantly code switching, at some point you are waiting for the code to change, to switch back. That could be as well that. Yeah, that was not the case for me. I mean, for me, it was very intentional when I was like, no, you know what, whether they they like it or not, that's what I'm going to do. And as well, because uh I think to the credit of the company I was working, I was working for, they realized along the way that it was very important to invite, you know, certain diversity, diversity and and and people to be themselves, to be more of themselves in within the you know the the the work uh environment. So as well, there was this kind of almost permission, you know, to be who you want to be. So I think I think it's important as well for for a company, it would not have been that, I would probably have left. You know, yeah, if I didn't have filled that permission, I would probably have left the left the company but earlier. But because there was this shift in the culture where it became more inclusive, where you know, toward diversity of any kind, you know, then it was okay. Then it was okay. And I think as well, that's why company needs to be mindful of that. You don't necessarily do uh diversity and inclusion only because you know it's nice to have on your website, but it is all because it's the right thing to do, but as well because it it helps you retain your talent, it helps you make people better because all of a sudden the energy that people are putting in code switching, they are going to put in the work. Yeah, though. So that's even better for you as a company or as an organization.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Yeah, yeah. And I wouldn't want to close this conversation without uh honoring that you did eventually leave the organization and now start your own thing. So, how does your story and your unprofessionalism show up in the work that you do now?

SPEAKER_03 43:30

Yeah, so I I created my company, the Team Wizard, and I I chose that name because um I'm not a consultant, and precisely because consultant is a very loaded term which comes with a certain archetype. And you know, uh when often when people think about uh consultant, they often think about this bigger consulting firm type of person. And that's not some something that I identify with. So I was very hesitant to use the term consultant because ultimately, you know, I'm cut I'm going to my clients how I am, you know, with my oversized trousers, my limited edition edition sneakers, and my oversized hoodies, you know, and my approach of how I work with them is uh the same. You know, it's a relaxed approach, is very real, you know, person to person, etc. And that's that works for some companies, and for some companies does not work, and it's okay, yeah, you know, but uh I'm not code switching because uh I'm not code switching, you know, with my client. And I think that's this freedom that I have from entrepreneurship as well. That's that's uh this freedom that really attracted me towards entrepreneurship.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Yeah, and modeling it for them.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

Yeah. And uh I wanted as well to to because I realized there is one of your questions I didn't answer. It's regarding the fact that did I was I able to do that switch because I came to a certain level of seniority that allowed me to do. Would I have done that if I was 20 years old or just starting my career? Yes and no. Yes, when you are you reach a certain level in in your career, yes, maybe you have a little more, how could I say, legitimacy, you have more gravitas in your organization that allows you to do these kind of moves than when you just start and you have to prove yourself. But on the other side, the risks are higher. And because you you risk you risk more.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Everything that you've worked on under your previous.

SPEAKER_03 46:00

Exactly. Yeah. So there is not a yeah, there is not a good start, a good time to start it or not. It's it's very much about do you have the courage to do it. And you know, it's you you will always find an organization that is going to accept you the way you are. I think you're always going to find that. And if you don't, you can always, you know, create your own organization, you know, for who you you you want to be. So in the end, it it's not about choosing between your professional advancement and and and who you are, but very much choosing whether you want to be in an organization that accepts you the way you are, or if you want to continue to code switch.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

So what would be your unprofessional advice for the audience?

SPEAKER_03 46:58

My unprofessional advice would be to it's going to sound very generic, but I think all ultimately comes to to what we have talked about. Have the courage to not to compromise on what is important to you. You know, there is a lot of things that we can compromise about on, you know, a lot of things that we can compromise on. But identifying what is it that is really important to you. You know, what is it that you want to be, you know, what is it that you want to stand for, you know, and then you have to dig and you know you dig your trenches and you don't move out of those. Yeah, the rest you can compromise, you know, but having the courage because ultimately it costs you more, compromising on those is going to cost you more than it's going to bring you. So I think that would be my my advice. Stick true to what is important to you, even if it might come across as being unprofessional in the current environment in which you are. Because ultimately you always find an environment in which it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Thank you, Mo.

SPEAKER_03 48:22

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

Thank you for your openness and uh yeah, sharing a glimpse into your world and uh past. Thanks.

SPEAKER_03 48:29

That was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

This was a conversation without the script. Now it's your turn. I'm Miriam Hapnus, and this has been unprofessionalism.