Unprofessionalism
What does it really mean to be professional?
For generations, professionalism has been associated with competence, composure and control. But many of the unwritten rules we follow at work were built for a different world, one that asked us to hide uncertainty, suppress emotion and prioritise appearance over connection.
Each week, Dr Myriam Hadnes, behavioural economist, facilitator and founder of workshops.work, sits down with people who've questioned those rules. Their stories start with a professional risk. Few set out to be disruptive. Most simply reached a point where the conventional way of working no longer served them or the people around them.
Together they unpack the risks they took: admitting they didn't know, showing grief at work, challenging authority, asking for help, dressing differently, changing careers, trusting others, leading in ways they'd never seen modelled.
This podcast doesn't ask you to reject professionalism, or treat authenticity as some ideal to reach for. It’s about judgment: Which professional norms help us collaborate, lead and build trust? Which ones create distance between people? And how do we recognise the difference?
If you've ever felt the gap between who you are and who you think work wants you to be, this podcast invites you to look again. Not every professional rule needs breaking. But every one is worth questioning.
Unprofessionalism
026 - The Corporate Drag with Charlie Robertson
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This week's professional risk - inspired by Charlie
Make the thing you've always kept furthest from work the centre of it.
Description
Charlie Robertson spent years keeping two lives carefully apart: the consultant at a well-respected firm, and Charlene Coco, the drag persona he performed in nightlife and mentioned to almost no one at work. Then he left the consulting career, went freelance as a facilitator, and — only about a year ago — did the thing that still makes him flinch when he posts about it on LinkedIn: he brought Charlene into the boardroom.
What follows isn't a coming-out story so much as a working theory of costumes. Charlie's argument, borrowed from RuPaul: we're all in drag, every day — the suit, the meeting voice, the confidence we perform. Most of us just never chose ours. Drag queens choose everything: the wig, the makeup, the walk, the reaction they want from the room. So what happens when you bring that level of intention to how you show up at work?
Along the way: why Charlene was once braver than Charlie in gay bars and is now more nervous than him in offices; the workshop participant who paces her flat in her highest heels before big video calls; what Charlie's dad means when he calls all of this "my Britney thing"; and a discovery neither of us saw coming until it happened mid-conversation — why an audience wills a drag queen to succeed, and what that reveals about which leaders we're actually willing to get behind.
This episode invites you to reflect on:
- Where the line sits between adapting to a room and disappearing into it
- What your version of the high heels is — the small, deliberate thing that switches your confidence on before you walk in
Over to you!
What's the one part of yourself you edit out before every meeting — and what would it take to wear it on purpose instead?
About Charlie
Charlie Robertson is the co-founder of Make it Werk, a consultancy helping organisations build teams worth being part of — and cultures worth staying for. He and his best friend Safiya started it after realising the inclusive spaces they created in nightlife were exactly what companies were missing. He facilitates trainings, offsites and workshops — sometimes in full drag, as Charlene Coco.
Links to learn more about Charlie:
What happens if we dare to tear off the mask of professionalism and actually risk showing up for real? I'm your host, Miriam Happen, and this is unprofessionalism.
SPEAKER_03There's the quote by RuPaul: we're all born naked and the rest is drag. What this really means is apart from when you're born where you literally are born naked into the world, every choice after that is a choice either made for you by your parents or society, and then when you get older, choices you make. So for a CEO, they may say they have to act a certain way. I have to wear the suit, I have to be a leader in whatever way that means. And behind that basically is saying that I should be a certain way, but it because actually hiding who you really are. And so being aware of the way you show up is really powerful. And that's the same as drag, basically. And the wig you're wearing, and the makeup you choose, the nails you choose, everything is an intentional choice and will have an impact on the audience. And that's the same for a CEO.
SPEAKER_02Charlie. Welcome to the show. Hello, we made it.
SPEAKER_03We made it. Yes. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a back and forth, but we finally got there. So I'm really excited to be here and to have this discussion with you today.
SPEAKER_02Me too. I'm very curious and don't want to take anything away. So start with my usual invitation for you to share an anecdote when of a time when you've been unprofessional.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so that's a really interesting question. And I thought long and hard about this. I think for me when when was I unprofessional? And what I really the way I define that is, you know, stepping into my own power and following what instinctively I want to do as opposed to what I should do. And I think for me that was came three years ago when I decided to leave my well-paid consulting role with a clear career path and a very well-perspected firm because I wanted to try and pursue this thing called facilitation and try and be a freelancer and see if I could do it. And at the time that felt really scary because it felt, oof, is this a wise move? You know, you have a mortgage, you have responsibilities. Why would you give up this like quote unquote very prestigious job, which is hard to get? And it was hard to get originally. But something in me was just like, go for it, give it a go. You know, your life is short, your career is long, and you should take these risks at times, you know. So I think that was a moment where I was like, I'm not gonna listen to anyone else, I'm gonna try this thing. It is a leap of faith, but trust yours, trust yourself and your instincts.
SPEAKER_02And it'll be a little bit provocative here. It's courageous, yes. But what made it unprofessional?
SPEAKER_03So what made it unprofessional, I guess, and we'll get more into this topic now, is using my drag as part of my career and practice. So before I kept my creative life very separate from my work life. So, you know, drag was a fun, my drag person, Charlene Coco, was a fun thing I did outside of work in nightlife. But I really realized that was actually quite a lot of power in bringing it into quote unquote professional spaces and play, and we'll get more into this, but playing with the idea of drag and they were all in drag every day, and actually speaking in front of a group of people at work. So that felt unprofessional in some way because I think people associate drag with, and rightly so, like a fun nighttime activity or you know, a fun pride event, but not really thinking about it in terms of how it can help us work in our daily roles. So it felt unprofessional, and I definitely found posting about it on LinkedIn like quite confronting because it did feel unprofessional in some way, and I still to this day like have to go through the the process of no, this is cool what you're doing, it's really unique, and no one else is doing it. So lean into that instead of shying it away. But that's still something I battle with at times.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Thank you for sharing that and unpacking it already a little bit. And I I'm curious because you say drag is has a connotation of unprofessionalism because it's a nighttime activity and it's fun and it's a very specific nighttime activity for a man to dress as a woman. What held you back in making this part of your professional identity? And what made you switch your perspective or approach?
SPEAKER_03So I think I think before, like before I went freelance, I always tried kept it very separate and didn't talk about it at work. Um, we'd only share it with people I was really trusted or was close with or close personal friends, but didn't really talk about it outside of that. And then but I the more I realized was you know, drag in itself is a form of community and bringing people together and having conversations you wouldn't normally have. And I experienced that in nightlife. And I realized like that's something you could do more in the workplace, and it's also one of the most interesting things about me and makes me stand out. So, you know, always when I would tell someone that you get an amazing reaction. And I was like, so this is about showing more of my story and who I am, as opposed to like shying away from that. And then what really pushed me to do it more was, you know, I then started being a freelancer. So I was doing a lot of team days, trust building workshops with companies, off-site retreats where you bring people together to talk about, you know, how can they work more effectively or collaborate more effectively together. And a way to stand out was to bring drag into that because it makes me unique, it's different from others. And I also think there's a powerful message there. So it's only in the last year or so that I've started to bring it more in. Um, before I would bring drag in at, you know, pride events for companies. So we do a lot of work around pride. So that is more of your standard like, you know, games, bingo, fun, party events. But then about a year ago, I was like, no, there's something more here. I think that I had this idea for a title for a talk called Why We Should All What CEOs Can Learn from a Drag Queen. I really sat down and was like, okay, what is there? Is there something there? Um, and then slowly from from that, like I've been trying to build this out more.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I I definitely double click on that. Um, and the more I've been thinking about the idea of drag as a costume and the corporate workplace wearing their very own costumes and the mask, the more I'm fascinated. And stay I will park this for just a moment longer to explore something that you said, because I think that it resonates with a lot of people and it takes more courage than we we think. And I wonder why that is, or my idea why that is. You mentioned that it's maybe the most interesting part of you, and still you kept it secret, you kept it a part of your professional identity, um, and only told a very few people. And I can see how it is maybe the most interesting part of you, but also the most vulnerable, because that's the most real part, the one you care the most, and then being judged for it, dismissed for it is a real risk.
SPEAKER_03100%. Yeah. I think any creative pursuit or differentiator one has, like, is obviously something very unique, but it also puts you in a slightly vulnerable position. I think people who are the non-dominant group, so it can be, yeah, anyone from a different minority or uh you know, women in the workplace as well experience this a lot. You know, it can be scary to put your like head in English, we say, above the parapet to kind of make yourself stand out. And there is this tendency to make yourself smaller or to fit in because you know, then you won't be judged as much, or people will accept you more. And I think people who've ex have experienced a lack of acceptance or at times or a perceived lack of acceptance, you know, it's the pull to kind of fit in is strong because it feels less risky, right? And so that's definitely something I've experienced. I think, you know, starting out in my career, I was like, no, I should be this way really goes to what you're talking about, right? A professional looks like this, dresses like this, acts like this, and it's that's all well and good if that's comes naturally to you. But I think there's a lot of connotations, but also a set of fixed ideas of what a professional is. And I would thankfully think that is changing. But I think, you know, when one thinks of a CEO or a professional uh in an office, there's still an image I think that can't is conjured up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And what comes up for me is that as a queer person we experience from the very beginning of our lives that we're somehow different. Yeah. Whether we've come out or not yet. Something is different. And then it costs so much energy to try to fit in and to hide that. And then on the other hand, once we dare and come out, not necessarily sexually, but just with our own identity, there's so much to win on the other side.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, 100%. And actually, I I would go even further and say it's not just one coming out, like I still feel it's a daily practice I have to tell myself. No, this is this is you, and this is you shouldn't shy away from that. And I think as queer people, it's it is a daily struggle or something we have to battle with because we have from a young age internalized that we are different and that you know maybe that's a risk. So I think there is still practices you have to do in yourself to keep yourself from, as we call it, code switching, which is where you hide parts of yourself or yeah, highlight different elements of yourself to fit in with the the dominant group. A lot of um ethnic minority spaces a lot as well. And so, yeah, and especially in some certain work cultures, you know, that that is a real risk, or that is, you know, actually coming out really could affect your professional idea life, um, depending on the culture you're in. And so there is this thing of shying away from it or hiding it. And that doesn't mean that everyone has to be, you know, it's completely up to your your personal choice, uh, how you want to show up at work. And you're not you're not obliged to tell anyone anything you don't want to. But if it's like holding you back or making you feel small, then that is an issue.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and a potential loss for the company or the team.
SPEAKER_03100%.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Thank you for sharing a little glimpse into your experience with that. So, what can a CEO learn from drag?
SPEAKER_03Well, that is the the million dollar question. I think like the way to think about it is there's the quote by RuPaul, we're all born naked and the rest is drag. So at a baseline level, what this really means is, you know, apart from when you're born, where you literally are born naked into the world, every choice after that is a choice either made for you by your parents or society. And then when you get older, yeah, choices you make. So that is in the way you behave, the clothing you wear, the choices you make around the people you you surround yourself with, the roles you take on in your life, so not just professionally, but as a father, son, brother, mother, sister, etc., best friend. And so understanding already that like every choice, yeah, isn't intentional and you can change these choices is powerful, right? So for a CEO, they may say they have to act a certain way, right? So I have to wear this suit, I have to come across strong, I have to be a leader and what in whatever way that means. And behind that basically is is saying that, you know, I should be a certain way, but it because actually hiding who you really are, right? And so being in being aware of uh yeah, the way you show up is really powerful. And that's the same as drag, basically, in the wig you're wearing, in the the makeup you choose, the nails you choose, like everything is an intentional choice and will have an impact on the audience. And that's the same for a CEO.
SPEAKER_02I love that. And it makes me realize that I think we have to take a step back.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, of what is drag and how do you create your character? Because from what I hear now, it's a very intentional crafting and development choice.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And the beautiful thing about drag is, you know, the experimentation from the very start. Like you don't come out the first time you try put makeup on or a wig, it's not going to be a great look because it takes practice and it takes time to refine, like, especially with the makeup. Like everyone's face is different. And I have such reverence for makeup artists because you have to really yeah, work out what works for your face. And then it also comes down to the styling and the clothing, and it's it's an evolving process still now, and it's not like a fixed identity, but you work out what fits you well, what makes you comfortable, what reaction do you get from the audience? And it's this constant process of refining, right? But I think the the beauty of drag is there's also kind of an irreverence for, you know, it's it's kind of questioning the what gender is, and it's questioning the way society says what a man should be or a woman should be. And that questioning is quite punk rock in its in itself because you're kind of challenging the norms of society and challenging, you know, questioning why should it be this way, or why can't a man put a huge wig on, or a woman if they're doing being a drag king, you know, put a moustache on, etc. So it's kind of laughing and questioning, you know, why is society saying we should be like this? And you can apply that similarly to a leadership role. Okay, the last leader was like this, or this is how it's been perceived in the past, but maybe I want to do it a different way and I have a different approach to it.
SPEAKER_02And then you can also try and test and evolve your character.
SPEAKER_03Exactly.
SPEAKER_02And then I'd be curious, what part is you and your own identity that you are trying to express with your drag character? And how much is the audience, the their reaction, their expectations?
SPEAKER_03I think it's like a symbiotic relationship, right? So you feed off the energy you're getting from the crowd, but equally, like you as a performer need to be putting out a lot of energy in order to get the reaction back, right? I think a way to think about it is the audience wants you to succeed. So even if you're nervous, I always think about that. If I'm nervous before performers, like the audience is there to have fun and a good time and wants you to succeed. So they're willing you to do well. And so going out and you know, getting that first few seconds of a song or whatever you're doing on stage is powerful because then it can calm you down because you're like, okay, great, like the audience is with me, I've gone for it on stage, I'm giving all this energy, and then hopefully you receive it back. So it should be a nice kind of volley between both, if that answers your question.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And another question when I heard you saying um the audience wants you to succeed, then we're thinking, huh, a CEO, does the audience really want them to succeed always? And I was thinking of the difference. And suddenly what came to my mind is the audience wants you to succeed as a drag because it's so vulnerable and you're daring to show yourself and you're prepared.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think the best leaders, right, are the ones who are vulnerable and daring and say, you know, this is difficult. You know, we're under a lot of pressure right now, and the world is in a crazy place, prices are going up, etc. And leaning into that vulnerability and saying, you know, this is hard. And I get it. And I don't have all the answers. You know, I think for a CEO, the pressure cascades down, right? Especially they'll have shareholders saying the profit's not as good as it was last quarter or last year. Why is that? And so then they have pressure and they push that down into the team. But the best leaders I've definitely experienced in my career are the ones who are able to be vulnerable and talk about experiences where they've struggled or yeah, admit where failure happens. I think a big part of this is right, it's psychological safety. And one of those things is being safe to admit mistakes and learn from those going forward. And that starts with leadership role modeling that behaviour.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And only yourself and your how you relate to the others, your decisions, how you show up. Yes. And then we are back at drag.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So that's the a really nice parallel between the two. That's why I'd say I think as well, like we actually the the the work we do now is more as well, not just with leadership, but also with teams. Because I think there's also a strong component for like junior members at first when they join the company to do a form of work drag that doesn't feel authentic to them, right? So I feel I definitely did this when I started my career. I always should be this way. So they're actually using a form of drag that's concealing rather than revealing who they are. And that again can lead to you know psychological stress or burnout if they if they're not if people feel they're not showing a side of themselves that feels authentic to them, yeah, or not saying what they really need.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because you're always you're hiding one part by highlighting another part. Yeah, make some parts of yourself very big through this other character. Charlene? Is it Charlene?
SPEAKER_03Charlene, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And so that you basically have two compartments.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02What has it done to you as a as a person and as a professional?
SPEAKER_03So I think Charlene and Charlie are very close. That's why the name's basically the same. Like there's not much difference between us. Back in the day, Charlene really was a way for me to feel more comfortable in queer spaces. Like I think originally when I was younger, I was like quite uncomfortable with being Charlie in like gay bars or uh LGBT spaces. And so Charlene was like a really powerful way for me to be seen in spaces but not be seen, if that makes sense. Like could hide behind Charlene. And now, you know, Charlie's very confident themselves and as myself in in the space, so they're kind of more on on par in terms of confidence levels. If anything, like Charlene gets a bit more scared if she goes into a workspace now, because it's still that battle of like, oh, how people are gonna perceive me. I think in revealing more, what it's made me it is vulnerable because what it makes you realise is you're not gonna be for everybody. Like, and I have to, and like that is something I'm still unlearning. The older I get, you know, I'm 34 now. It's like it's okay, not everyone's gonna want what you're doing or love you in so I or get it, and that's fine. But that's something that still, as a people pleaser and as things comes from queer person wanting to fit in, like I still battle with that sometimes, you know. Oh God, like what are people gonna think? And it's like it's okay, some people won't get it or don't want to know about it, or think it's kind of weird, and that's okay, but it's that constant reminder to myself of what you're doing is courageous and brave, and not everyone has to like it.
SPEAKER_02And I find it fascinating how you use the costume to find confidence by becoming someone else who, of course, is confident, right, in their own quirk and then to elevate this quirkiness. And I was thinking of what you shared about the new team member or the first job, where you will buy the most expensive costume or tie or the leather shoes, and then walk into the space with this elevated confidence because of the costume, because of the corporate drag.
SPEAKER_03100%. Yeah, we do in in the talk we give, you know, because there is an element of fake it to make it right in some way. And one of the questions we always ask is Is there one thing you do to like turn up your confidence, to like turn up the confidence in your work drag persona? And the answers are always really amazing, like really interesting. One person said, you know, they'll be at home, they've got a really important meeting and they're taking it from home, they're like put on their highest heels, like walk around flat, like feeling themselves and then sit down for the week meeting. Another one said the more rings she has on, the more like stress she is, but it gives her power. And so there may be one or two things that can really help in those moments where we're like, can I do this? or the imposter syndrome's strong that does give you that that confidence, right? I wonder if you have one.
SPEAKER_02Um it's very interesting. I think one that comes to my mind that's actually from ways back at the beginning when I started podcasting. I knew that the having the microphone in front of me kind of put me into this podcast headspace. And then for a very long time, whenever I had an important meeting, I would need I would put the podcast the microphone in front of me because it's a reminder.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_02And I think now is is similar. I would also put on nice clothes where I feel comfortable in my body. I would maybe put on makeup, but then it's Interesting. I recently realized or I wondered, asked myself how much of the makeup I'm putting on for video call or training. How much is it for me? And how much is it out of the assumption that I have to do that because it's unprofessional as a woman to show up without makeup to a meeting or to a training that I'm hosting.
SPEAKER_03Interesting.
SPEAKER_02So that's the expected drag.
SPEAKER_03And do you have you landed on which uh which side is more?
SPEAKER_02I think it's a mix of both. I think it's mostly there is a sort of expectation. Because um you see whether someone puts some effort in before they're meeting other people. And I think and I wonder whether this then is part of the phenomenon that you shared that the audience wants you to succeed as a drag because they can see all the effort that went into it. The the costume, the makeup, the music, the show. And then they're supportive. And if you don't see that the CEO is putting any effort in, is not taking it seriously, it's more difficult to support them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that is such an amazing point. Yeah, I mean, that it comes down to this question of like empathetic and leadership or vulnerable leadership. You can feel very quickly whether a CEO is, you know, just caring about the the finance, financial aspect, right? And are they really there to support the team and make the team thrive? And I think that comes down to whether they're putting effort in, right? I suppose that's a big, big driver.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I think that's a really incredible link that I hadn't even made before, but I think that's really powerful in terms of, yeah, you want to get behind a leader who is there, who who you know cares for the team and cares for the well-being of the team as well, and has your interests at heart, not just the shareholders.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, and there are ways how we can express that through the way we show up.
SPEAKER_03Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Have you ever experienced that Charlene has created distance between you and other people instead of connection?
SPEAKER_03Good question. No, I don't think so. Other than I'm just thinking specifically in like nightlife, you know, that you're very much like the performer versus the audience. So it can be once you're not performing, you're just in the crowd chilling. Some people may be scared to come up to you. So that could be an interesting, or maybe intimidated, or especially if people don't know you very well or not uh so familiar with drag, you know, it can be a bit of a confronting. So it could be that. And also, I guess it can create a distance if people don't understand it. So, for example, my dad he is very supportive and loves me and you know, everything I'm doing, but you know, he's just never been exposed to drag. So sometimes he'll call it my Britney thing because I used to do a Britney Spears number. And so it's not really a distance, but it's it's an acceptance from my side and from his side that maybe you know there's a slight uncomfortableness with it, but he's still supportive. So I don't know if that counts as distance, but you know, also just accepting people where they're at, you know, some people just won't understand it. But in terms of like performing or bringing it into workspaces, it normally creates connection and gets people to think outside of their day-to-day, which is really what I want to do and have the conversations that you don't normally have. Um and I find drag's a really powerful tool for that because you know, if I'm showing up in a full dress and a wig, I think it gives permission for others to yeah, be brave as well and share things they wouldn't otherwise share. So kind of role modeling a way to be. I mean, that's partly why I love drag in the first place, right? Like there's so much joy looking at someone kind of be on stage and like live their fantasies. Like there's something so empowering around that, yeah. In whatever form that may be, and that's not just like drag queens, that's drag kings, that's also drag aliens, club kids, you know, really outside of like any type of yeah, gender binary or gender, or even gender, could be agenda. And that's amazing to see someone just like live their fantasy out on the stage. And it's inspiring. And I'm inspired by drag every day. And I think that really applies to workplace as well. If you see someone who's a leader and is like fearless and is going for something and it's a risk, or you know, and they're being honest about the vulnerability, it could be a business owner, but it also could be, you know, your manager. Like that's really inspiring. Or an education leader. You want to be around that energy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What's your take on authenticity in this context?
SPEAKER_03Great question. Authenticity to me is a funny one because authenticity to me is not a fixed state of being. I think we can get really stuck in the idea that like I'm being authentic is it means a fixed, rigid thing. And the reality is we are different in different situations and doesn't mean we're less authentic in one than the other, right? The role I play as a brother is different to the role I play as, you know, leading an off-site of 150 people is different to the role I play in coaching people. So, you know, Charlie has different parts of myself that I highlight and low light depending on the situation I'm in. And I think it can be damaging to say, like, I am one way, I am one thing, I'm I'm one identity, I have values, I have personality traits, I have ideas, but I don't have a fixed sense of what is authentic and what is not to me.
SPEAKER_02So as long as this integrity or this alignment to your values is intact, then the expression of it can change.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Without harming authenticity.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_02I can see that, and I think it's very it's liberating because I was thinking about the distance versus proximity, the invitation to be more daring in your approach and sharing when approaching a drag queen, as opposed to feeling the distance you had with your dad. I was wondering whether it has to do with authenticity and can see that people would feel invited to share maybe their more vulnerable, authentic self when talking to a drag queen because it's like yeah, they have the permission to do that, and by appearance, the drag queen is open to it.
SPEAKER_03100%. Yeah. It gives people permission to yeah, open up, open up different parts of themselves. And yeah, that's an interesting one, like showing up more authentically, or yeah, I just think be another way to think about it is just not being scared to show parts of yourself that you are otherwise wouldn't, right? So I think that's another way to say it. Because there may be a version of yourself that's authentic at work, which is still different from the authentic version of yourself in family. And I think I want to be very careful in saying, like, I'm not saying that you have to show up and reveal things about yourself that are very personal to you in the workplace. Like I would never uh say that. In fact, I'd say be smart in what you reveal, but yeah, so be intentional about it. Like also, some people may take this as I'm gonna be authentic at work, and that actually can't comes at the cost of being kind to others, and that's definitely not what I'm saying either. You don't want to be yeah, being honest to a point of losing personal care, right? So it comes down to this radical calendar idea framework.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You still need to be careful in your words and your actions. So there's a fine line there as well in a work setting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Although I can see if you stick to the to your earlier definition or explanation that it's you stick to your values, then it is then it's not about lashing out and just being immature.
SPEAKER_03Um I want to say as well, like I guess one other point I think is very important here is like, you know, this is also like a business critical issue. Like if people don't speak up, they're holding back ideas, feeling ignored and disengaged, and this is ultimately like bad for business, right? Or innovation. So I do want to say as well, you know, this is not just a nice to have, like this is something that's very important, and I think a lot of teams understand this, right? That having a work culture where people can show up in a way that feels good to themselves, they're able to contribute ideas is is really important. And it really comes down to this idea of psychological safety, which I'm sure you've touched a lot on before. And I think it comes down to like two factors in some ways in the work context. One is kind of making sure that there's kind of equality in equality in people being able to uh take turns in conversation and in meetings and people being able to speak up. But it also requires as well, like something called ostentatious listening. So allowing people to really feel like they've been heard. I think that's a really important part of this as well. So then people feel more safe to show up and say, well, I think this or this is a really important thing to me, and I think we should pursue this angle. So yeah, I I just wanted to highlight like the the the business imperative here as well.
SPEAKER_02If they do have if they feel that they have permission to bring their whole whole selves to work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I would be curious to hear from you your experience since you made this shift and whether Because in my in my imagination, it's like, oh, you you reconcile yourself, you bring out your passion into the world as also from a professional business perspective. And this creates then opportunities. What's been that impact on your business and reactions from your network?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so it's actually been really, really positive. It's we're still trying to grow this and see what it looks like. So we've done a number of talks, but I've already got been like flown internationally for this. So it feels like it's quite exciting in some ways. The reaction's been very positive, and people can enter the talk not being tentative, but leave feeling they experience something special, and that's really what I want to do. So the positive, the impact's been overwhelming and positive. And while it still at times can be feel scary, I'm like, oh gosh, like are people gonna like this or how are people gonna react to this? So far, it's been yeah, a really great experience. And now I just want to see how far I can grow it and sell it and push it and have impact really as well. That's the the key thing, right? And how do we take it past yeah, a moment of inspiration to also really embedding this into work cultures as well? So that's kind of the path I'm on at the moment.
SPEAKER_02What I find so beautiful in that is that it is deeply personal and so vulnerable because of the risk for your rejection. And at the same time, it is a lived experience that you invite others to learn from in a way that is adjusted to their own experience without forcing them into a space that's not theirs. I'm thinking of many workshops or leadership trainings that would ne use costumes to step into different personas and to play it out. And there's lots of value in that, and still to tap into something that is so provocative because it means highlighting parts of your own identity that are usually not seen.
SPEAKER_03Definitely. I like this the the what you're saying here as well, is like using this concept as well for driving even more empathy. So like stepping to the drag of someone else, I think it's an interesting angle to it too, which is just sparking in another aha moment for me.
SPEAKER_02Tell me more about that.
SPEAKER_03Well, just as you're speaking, I'm thinking again, this is always so nice, like it's expanding my ideas of like how to use the concept further. But you know, a big part of authentic and or like you know, great leadership, I think, is being able to have a lot of empathy and understanding of what the team's going through and also on an individual basis, you know, what each member's dealing with. And maybe a way to do that is to ask them to step into the drag of like a middle manager versus the intern versus whoever whatever the team makeup is, and getting to think about it from their angle. I have done exercises like this before, like the empathy wheels, an exercise I don't know where you get people to stand around the room and but the the element of drag is an interesting addition to it as well, around this idea of personas, I think.
SPEAKER_02Which makes me think of um No one's still that by the way, and I'm checking that's just joking. I've done activities where we would copy the way of walking of other people and then basically feeling how getting a real good embodied sense of how they must feel. And then I think, yeah, get going even a step further.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02By stepping into someone's drag. Okay, so how does it feel if I wear these high heels before a call? How do I feel wearing so many rings that somehow might become an armor in itself, but also maybe some what's the heaviness means?
SPEAKER_03100% like that. Yeah, really like that too. Yeah, so I think it can be played there. And I also think there's a another area that I'm interested in exploring around on this idea of like what are the small things you can do to make you feel more powerful or more confident, is kind of workshopping that as well. So using different personas to, for example, with presenting, okay, present it in a style that a CEO would versus a manager or and kind of getting more confident with putting on different personas. So then when it comes to actually you yourself presenting, you feel you've got it because you've done it in different ways or silly voices or whatever. So it's like a a way to train people as well, I think is a really nice angle there, too.
SPEAKER_02Where would you see the difference between stepping into your drag as opposed to trying on a different persona?
SPEAKER_03So that's a great question. So I think you know, it also can be that you're experimenting yourself. You know, I'm gonna try on this role. How does it feel? Versus so that can be, you know, an experiment for yourself, especially if you're more junior. But I think trying on a persona would be for a short exercise, or you're giving it a go while stepping into your own drag is like really listening to what you need and what your body wants and what you know, what are your inner strengths and leaning into those and your own personal stories.
SPEAKER_02And how important is then to have to have it separate so that you're stepping in and out of drag, or is there a moment where it becomes one and it's difficult to disentangle?
SPEAKER_03I think, yeah, if we go on the premise that you're always doing drag, so already the foundation is you're doing it right now. So it's more process of interrogation of the way I am currently showing up in the workplace, for example. Is that sitting well with me? Or have I got that like not in my it's really about like listening to it, but have I got that knot in my stomach where I'm afraid to speak up? Sorry, there's a barge going past. I'm afraid to speak up. I'm not able to say what I think properly, or like I'm not showing a side of myself that I really want to show because actually this is where I'd thrive. So I think it's about going back to this idea of concealing versus revealing, like really having an internal look of is the way I'm acting and showing up actually something that feels right for me.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. What's something unprofessional that you would still advise others to do?
SPEAKER_03That is the million-dollar question. What I would say to that is, and actually I just want to, because I had thought about this a bit. I just want to see what I wrote here. I think what I would say is don't wait for others to give you permission to dive in and try and be a version of yourself that you want to be. Like I think a lot of the time we can get stuck in yeah, what we should be. And I say, you're braver than you think, and so surround yourself with people who are going to champion you as much as you can. And that can be on a small level in a in a workspace, in order for you to potentially show aside yourself that you haven't yet. So I think that would that would be my one. I would say, like, careers are long, so take the risks and don't wait for others to give you permission to show up in a way that feels good to you.
SPEAKER_02Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Thank you.
SPEAKER_01This was a conversation without the script. Now it's your turn. I'm Miriam Hapmas, and this has been unprofessionalism.